I am so fucking sick of this “demons have human morals~!” whitewashing bullshit and shaming. Fucking sick of it.
I’m going to write this epic post, sourced and researched the fuck out of and stick it in every tag that even might slightly be relevant.
And the next time someone decides to shame someone for summoning or working with demons or say that demons have human ethics and morals I am going to point to said post and tell them to fuck themselves.
Because seriously people, I don’t care about how you fucking feel demons are oppressed. Demons are powerful, non-corporeal, otherworldly beings. They will fuck you up even if you bind them to you. Until one of them says “No, stop, don’t” I will continue to summon, bind, and use them as much as I would summon, harness, and use a horse to fucking get me to point A to point B.
My experiences are not yours. Don’t fucking invalidate my experiences because they offend your morals.
tl;dr: Send me your demon resources. You might have some I don’t. I’ll also take spirit resources (because this whole western idea of demons is not how I view demons and I take a more culturally diverse approach by saying demons = spirits.)
greatest-plague:
thiscrookedcrown:
asksecularwitch:
roguesareth:
“You need to change your behavior.” No :3
Theres a difference between saying “You shouldn’t eat bananas because they’re yellow” and ” forcing/expecting an entity to bow to your every need is rude” are two different things.
I am allowed to have an opinion, and my opinion is that this type of this ( binding demons to you to do your bidding, ‘using’ deities to power your spells and rituals etc) is rude and disrespectful.
If that is shaming then so be it. Because shame on you SHAME if you think its alright to force another person/being/deity/whatever to do excatly what you want with no regard or respect for them.
If they want to help you, thats fine. But you shouldn’t expect it and should be prepared to get your ass handed to you if they don’t like your ‘tude.
Summoning ( and by that I don’t mean prayer, I mean demanding) a deity and expecting them to work your will is rude. Using a deity or spirit as if they were some kind of tool is disrespectful. Binding a demon to you to do your aid in your spells or work ( with out their consent) is fucking slavery.
How hard is it to be courteous?
So yes I shame this kind of disrespectful behavior. Will I stop you from doing it or constantly harass the people who do? No. But I will not approve and I will laugh my ass off when the gods dish out a little punishment for it. I will shame it. because it is SHAMEFUL.
This is why I am fucking solitary.
Why’d you make two posts? You wurd bro.
You are disrespectful roguesareth. You are disrespectful of others beliefs and practices. Please go away. If you’re going to stand there and insult what others do, do it somewhere else.
I don’t have gods. No gods will punish me because I don’t work with them. The spirits I work with, and have worked with for 15 years, have never punished me. I don’t bow to them nor do I have to. You know what? I’m concerned that one day you’re going to run across something that sees your “courteous” ways and throws you to the ground and stomps all over you and you’re going to wonder why it couldn’t just be nice and courteous?
More importantly is this: Demons, spirits and gods ARE NOT HUMAN. They do not give a fuck about your or my ethics, morals, and courteous ways. They do not care. They are not human. Stop it.
You don’t have to agree with others. You can keep on shaming but keep it to yourself. We don’t need you policing us. And we certainly don’t need your commentary telling us how “wrong” we are. We’re going to keep on doing what we’re doing.
Now go away.
Can I just stop in and say that demons, spirits, and gods have their own sets of morals? They do care. Just because they’re not human, doesn’t mean they don’t like someone coming to them in a nice way.
They have their own lives. They aren’t just there to do things for you. You’re taking them from loved ones so they can do a few little magic tricks that you could probably do for yourself if you tried hard enough.
That being said, shaming can be good. It makes people question their practices and beliefs. If they find it to be okay, then they will continue to hold their beliefs despite how this person feels about them. It all depends on how the people convey their dislike for that belief. If they’re doing things like what goes on in the otherkin tag, it’s disgusting. If they convey their opinion in a rational way, like roguesareth did, it can inspire thought. And in inspiring thought, it can make someone grow more firm in their beliefs, or make them realize that what they’re doing isn’t necessarily right for them to do.
Maybe it’s just being a potentially Luciferian individual in the middle of the Bible Belt, where I have to debate about my beliefs with evangelical Christians nearly every time it’s brought up, but I think people are too defensive when it comes to this. Add a little controversial thought, and it’s immediately stomped out. Like the thought that maybe these individuals don’t want to do what you want them to do. That they have their own morals and don’t want their powers going in the direction you’re sending them. Empathy, for the most part, with the spirits/demons/angels/gods/what-have-you that you work with always goes a good measure. They’re not objects, they’re beings that are helping you out.
Also, this is a public blogging platform. Any ideas can be expressed, whether you agree with them or not. So now that my personal view on the subject has been said, I’m going to acknowledge that others do not have empathy with the beings they work with. And though saddening, they will continue to do this. And I’m probably not going to change any opinions by what I’m saying here. And I accept that. Because different individuals have different thought processes than I do. I can only say what I need to say and hope it influences someone to think.
I’m agreeing to disagree. I don’t like what was and is being said because it disagrees with mine and many others’ experiences. And then shames those experiences, as OP flat out said.
Also, you can share your opinions without shaming someone. Shaming people isn’t necessary for stating your opinions. And your passive-aggressive backhanded way of shaming, by the way, is still shaming. Please stop forcing your opinions on others.
And for the record I’ll correct myself here. Many don’t care. They don’t care about your opinions, morals, or ethics. Demons, spirits, and gods have their own opinions and morals. They might care but that doesn’t guarantee that they do. I was generalizing and that wasn’t right. Some might care. My experiences disagree with your experiences/opinions.
I would write more on this but I’ll put it in another post so I don’t continue perpetuating an issue I want to be done with. I don’t care what you practice or how you shame me. All I want is to be left alone to summon or not summon as I please.
Your comment on this being a public blogging platform is adorable, by the way. As if I hadn’t noticed. By “go away” I mean drop the topic as we are no longer going to discuss it. I actually left the house after making that post. Because I no longer wanting to discuss something where it was more than obvious we weren’t going to agree. I was dragged back into this disagreement by an anon message. And again by your post.
There’s a lot more to this discussion beyond this post that you may not seeing. If this is the post you chose to respond to then you are, quite literally, missing half the debate and other posters’ comments on the topic.
asksecularwitch:
roguesareth:
“You need to change your behavior.” No :3
Theres a difference between saying “You shouldn’t eat bananas because they’re yellow” and ” forcing/expecting an entity to bow to your every need is rude” are two different things.
I am allowed to have an opinion, and my opinion is that this type of this ( binding demons to you to do your bidding, ‘using’ deities to power your spells and rituals etc) is rude and disrespectful.
If that is shaming then so be it. Because shame on you SHAME if you think its alright to force another person/being/deity/whatever to do excatly what you want with no regard or respect for them.
If they want to help you, thats fine. But you shouldn’t expect it and should be prepared to get your ass handed to you if they don’t like your ‘tude.
Summoning ( and by that I don’t mean prayer, I mean demanding) a deity and expecting them to work your will is rude. Using a deity or spirit as if they were some kind of tool is disrespectful. Binding a demon to you to do your aid in your spells or work ( with out their consent) is fucking slavery.
How hard is it to be courteous?
So yes I shame this kind of disrespectful behavior. Will I stop you from doing it or constantly harass the people who do? No. But I will not approve and I will laugh my ass off when the gods dish out a little punishment for it. I will shame it. because it is SHAMEFUL.
This is why I am fucking solitary.
Why’d you make two posts? You wurd bro.
You are disrespectful roguesareth. You are disrespectful of others beliefs and practices. Please go away. If you’re going to stand there and insult what others do, do it somewhere else.
I don’t have gods. No gods will punish me because I don’t work with them. The spirits I work with, and have worked with for 15 years, have never punished me. I don’t bow to them nor do I have to. You know what? I’m concerned that one day you’re going to run across something that sees your “courteous” ways and throws you to the ground and stomps all over you and you’re going to wonder why it couldn’t just be nice and courteous?
More importantly is this: Demons, spirits and gods ARE NOT HUMAN. They do not give a fuck about your or my ethics, morals, and courteous ways. They do not care. They are not human. Stop it.
You don’t have to agree with others. You can keep on shaming but keep it to yourself. We don’t need you policing us. And we certainly don’t need your commentary telling us how “wrong” we are. We’re going to keep on doing what we’re doing.
Now go away.
Why what wonderful witches you and your friends are! Thank you for being such good help, The anon that was seeking help from witchy on deamons here. Do you know of any good resources for researching deamons? Great books or websites? I have to be honest, I know next to nothing. But I would love to learn about them. Advice on where I should start? Thank you for you help :)
Anonymous
First. Guys, guys! This beautiful anon called us wonderful! Let us shower our praise upon them! This never happens mostly because we call folks out on their bullshit.
And you are very welcome. I’m always happy to answer questions.
I recommend checking out folklore, fairy tales, superstitions, and mythology for information on daemons/demons/spirits (I use this all interchangeably as I’m not too concerned with who is who or what). I also recommend the whole host of encyclopedia or guides on spirits, fae, and demons out there. Judika Illes’ The Encyclopedia of Spirits hasn’t angered me too much which is high praise. I have an Encyclopedia of Witchcraft and Demons from the early 1900s which is full of rubbish and lies but still has some decent information on demons. I’d read ALL THE THINGS as critically as possible (a guide to critical reading was recently produced by Hellboundwitch but I can’t seem to find the actual link at the moment.)
I wouldn’t rush out and buy any of these books. Poke about online or at the library first. You can keep yourself busy for literally months (if not longer) using just the library. You can also use bookstores as a library of sorts. I’m fairly known for wandering into bookstores, looking up the information I want, and then leaving without buying a single thing. Rude perhaps, but books are expensive and not always in the weekly budget.
Books dealing with demons/daemons/spirits and, I’ll throw in the fae too, are notoriously difficult to write. A lot of these beings just don’t cooperate and everyone’s experiences are a little different. And if you publish something everyone’s going to have something to say on it. There’s also a lot of shade and shame being tossed about by those who think it’s “bad” or “evil” or “dark” to work with demons/daemons/spirits. (It’s not. That’s bullshit.)
I recently wrote this post on where to start which is based on an ask I got. (One of these days I’m going to collect all these posts and put them in a master post. Just not today.)
A lot of work with daemons/spirits/demons is all experimenting, reading what others have done, and then possibly deciding which way to go. Ceremonial magicians don’t contact spirits the same way I do. I don’t always cross the hedge to contact demons.
You might also want to check the demonolatry tag. I don’t post there often but others do and it’s always interesting to see what’s going on with other folks.
I believe I promised much earlier this morning to post a spirit summoning. I’ll still do that so watch for it.
Hope this helps and let me know if you think of anything else!
Excuse me, I am very sorry to bother you but I would love to know how to find out if you have sold your soul. I may or may not have done so because there was a spell I was desperately casting today and I offered up several things, among them my soul, and now I’m a little freaked out because I have no idea if that’s what happened.
Anonymous
Ah… This one’s tricky.
From what I’ve seen the whole “selling your soul to the devil” comes from the Faust legend from the 1500s. (See Johann Georg Faust’s wiki page for more as a base source). I don’t believe Faust actually sold his soul. I’m more along the lines of thinking that it was elaborate story-telling on his part - he was known to perform pranks and be a story-teller. Adding to that the knowledge that he was banished from cities and was a known sodomite (which was a crime). All in all, I don’t believe he sold his soul. I think when Christopher Marlowe wrote his play he added that. Given the power of the Church in the 1500s, I seriously doubt he sold his soul.
Can a soul be offered? I think a person can contact themselves to a demon or spirit and be considered a relationship akin to life partners. Is that common? Absolutely not. Demons and spirits really don’t want to be bound to someone for that many years. And they would have to agree to it.
That all being said, if you offered your body and soul, that may have been an invitation of possession which might be taken up, but it unlikely. Possession is not all that common (I wouldn’t call it rare though) and most people do retain their own will.
The “Devil’s mark” isn’t something that occurs solely on selling your soul. Matter of fact, the “Devil’s mark” was most likely a creation of witch-hunters and demonologists (which were originally more interested in managing witches doing harm than demons doing harm. Dealing with spirits and demons will get you marked up and bruised at times. That’s part of the trade.
tl;dr: I don’t know how to detect whether you sold your soul. There is no way that I can find to check. I own literally no books that even mention a way and I checked a dozen of them.
I wouldn’t be too worried about it. If you message me more of the ritual I can try to maybe predict what might happen but there’s no guarantee.
Do any of my followers have anything to add?
roguesareth:
This Crooked Crown: My thoughts on summoning deities/spirits, etc
tinypagan:
roguesareth:
I hate that term ‘summoning’ or how people ‘use’ deities/spirits in spells and rituals.
You can not summon or use a deity/spirit/demon. You can ask politely, beg, bargain and bribe and they can refuse you or make your life a living hell because you offended…
Not trying to be a dick or shaming ( dear god I hate how every time someone has a different opinion its “shaming” ) I would find it rude to ‘summon’ or ‘use’ ANYONE, deity, human or otherwise.
And you are generalizing about how ” they want the fight for control” perhaps some due but that is not true for them all. try that with the wrong god/spirit/demon/angel/person/etc and you are going to get you ass handed to you.
You can not just control another person/creature/whatever like that ( or shouldn’t at least) because yes, its rude to, essentially FORCE, anyone/thing to do what you want regardless of what they want or don’t want.
Yes you can control other beings. YOU might not want to but OTHERS might. And you know what? That’s for each practitioner to decide. If a practitioner wants to force everyone and everything they deal with to work with them, that is their decision. You literally cannot say that they can’t do that. Because you don’t have that right. You are not some kind of ruler or judge - you don’t make the law
Are practitioners who force beings to their will going to get their ass handed to them? Maybe or maybe not. And yes there certainly are beings that do not like to be summoned. And if they are they may take measures against their summoners. Or, they might not.
As for “fighting for control”? Some beings like to play games. They like the power plays. They might like to manipulate you into thinking you’ll come out on top before they break your knees and bring you down.
Summoning is not always some crazy ritual. It could be prayer. A child could prayer for their mother’s cancer to be cured and a demon decides, “you know what? I hate all these stupid human but I’m going to help cause I feel like it”.
Again: Just because YOU wouldn’t do it doesn’t mean you get to judge others on what they can or cannot do. Actually no, that’s incorrect. You can judge others. You can’t force them to follow your particular morals or beliefs. And you’re judgement means absolutely nothing to anyone else but you. That’s how opinions work. You might consider it rude to summon beings. I consider it rude to tell people what they can or cannot do in their witchcraft.
EDIT: Oh, it is shaming because you’re saying that it’s wrong to summon beings.
This isn’t a summoning. This is more of a… open door policy for them to come on it. Like a spare room used by a common house guest. It’s literally how to make a common object into a spirit vessel.
That aside, the best way to communicate with a spirit on the regular is to leave something empty, capable of possession. A doll, statue, puppet, etc is best for this purpose due to the regular humanoid shape. Although, if you’ve got some fears of a real-life version of Chucky you may want to pick an object without arms or legs. For the purposes of this post, we’re going to pick one of those thick plastic skyballs (the super duper high bouncing balls that fit nicely in both hands but are smaller than, say, a kickball). I like these balls for spirit vessels because a) you can throw them when you’re pissed b) you can see inside of it to see any slight color changes c) it’s innocuous enough to be kept by anyone.
Cleanse the ball. DON’T put any energy in the ball. Matter of fact, pull out any energy that happens to enter the ball.
Prepare an offering (honey, milk, nom nom foods, alcohol, smoke, blood, whatever) and when you next feel a spirit or demon about you put the ball next to the offering and invite the being to use the ball as a vessel. In exchange, you’ll give offerings whenever you feel the presence in the ball. Or maybe you’ll carry the ball with you and show the demon or spirit parts of the world it couldn’t see before due to shielding or whatever. Or maybe it’ll just be a place for the spirit to hang and what you do witchy shit. Whatever.
You can also use this vessel to trap a demon or spirit if it gets out of hang. Then chuck it out the damn window and maybe release it out there. Or not. Whatever. (Although, if the vessels becomes destroyed and you’ve trapped something in there, needless to say the demon or spirit will be pissed.)
Have fun putzing with your spirit vessels! Let me know if you attempt to try this out! I want to know how creative you all get.
tinypagan:
roguesareth:
I hate that term ‘summoning’ or how people ‘use’ deities/spirits in spells and rituals.
You can not summon or use a deity/spirit/demon. You can ask politely, beg, bargain and bribe and they can refuse you or make your life a living hell because you offended them.
These are not magical tools for you to use for your spells and rituals as you want, they are GODS, you can not use a god or demand that they appear before you.
I have the same issue with ‘binding’ a demon you want to use in spell work.
In fact I find that highly offensive. Being polite and cautious will do you just fine.
Yeah, not like any historical magical practices use deities or spirits. Not at all.
Those practices aren’t for me, but they are used by some people, and there are historical examples of them.
Hey look! Shaming folks again!
Look, people bind people. People bind, curse, hex, entrap, and generally can do shit to each other. They can summon people. Demons and spirits are no damn different.
Saying that you might curse someone (which is not what OP is talk about but I’m bringing it up) but you might not summon a demon because it’s rude is bullshit. That’s you saying you think demons or spirits are better than humans and are worth more respect than your fellow humans.
Folks summon gods too. And sometimes those gods answer those summons.
Will you probably build a better relationship by asking? Sure. But some spirits and demons simply do not respond to requests. They like the challenge of fighting for control. Some like being used and will be used in exchange for something even if that exchange is never verbalized or the summoner doesn’t even know it’s occurring. And some just like to meet humans who are ballsy enough to summon them. You don’t know. You’re not a demon or a spirit or a god. You’re a human projecting your opinions, morals, and ethics on others.
Stop judging people for how they practice their witchcraft. Just because you’re offended for a demon (who, by the way, don’t really seem to give a fuck as far as I’ve seen and I’ve asked) doesn’t mean that you’ve got the right to tout your morals and ethics over other people’s.
tl;dr Your opinions are very nice but unwanted by others and are impractical at best. Don’t be a dick and police others about morals and ethics.
A few days back I got an ask about how to contact demons or spirits and where to start. This is a slightly annotated version of that ask’s answer.
Just a head’s up, this is long.
Ah… Book-wise you might want to look into the Seals of Solomon. I don’t tend to deal too much with that sort of thing. There is a list of demon summoning sigils you can look at. Try typing in “sigil summonings” and it’s the first image that pops up in google images. That’s more of the Judeo-Christian slant of things. That’s not really my thing.
No, really guys. If you’ve come here looking for Judeo-Christian demons or what people think of when they think “demon!” I’m not your girl. I’m pretty sure you’ll know more than I will. Head on over to blacktieblackmagick.tumblr.com. Last I checked the blog hadn’t updated but go through the archives. It’s fucking amazing.
As for dealing with more spirit-y demons… Best thing to do is start leaving an offering out when when you do so ask to speak with a spirit/demon/genus loci, etc. Eventually one will make contact. Generally speaking offerings of a spoiled pie or cake (one baked with rotting fruit for instance), honey (clove or raw although wildflower honey attract fae and more herbivorous animal spirits/demons), alcohol (natural is better, like mead, fruit wine, gin, etc), milk (whole is better but whatever you have on hand. Cream or half-and-half is good too), meat, or any combination thereof will garner some attention. You’ll get even more attention at a crossroads or a body of moving water (river, creek, etc.)
Spoiled cake/pie thing I learned from Ginandjack. I remember reading about spoiled cake/pie but he’s the one who recommended I try it last summer. Works like a dream if you’re baking and mischief is running about.
Notice how I always recommended honey and alcohol? Yeah. Fucking nom nom nom. I love me some honey. I buy it in bulk.
Also, there is no way to guarantee a demon or spirit will talk to you. They do what they want.
As a side-bar, I’ve mentioned it before but I’ll say it again. I don’t often differentiate between spirit and demon. Shit, I barely differentiate between fae and spirit. These definitions are far too fluid to be of any serious use for me. Check out my answer to this question for my opinions on this.
It’s a good idea to start thinking what or who you want to work with. There are as many types of spirits or demons are there are stars in the sky. (I’ve even had some things I’d consider fae identify as demon). Certain demons may be attracted to things others wouldn’t be. Fox spirits/demons like puzzles, wine, and playing games, cat spirits/demons like doorways, feathers, and bells. Both are notoriously hard to work with because they don’t stay still. Fox spirits/demons may travel in groups so you might get more than one. Cat spirits/demons are terrific at gathering information but aren’t reliable. At all.
I have fun stories. Also, there are really that many spirits, demons, gods, fae, and other woo~ beings out there. I cannot be convinced otherwise.
There’s a bunch of different techniques I use. Sometimes I use a sword smeared with mugwort oil to see spirits (Agrippa recommends this). Chinese tradition has a bamboo flute carved with the spirit’s name (I personally use a particular tune I wrote to summon certain spirits. My brother had a goblin-esque being come to him when he whistled a particular tune.)
Some of these have been pulled from random knowledge but I remembering seeing at least one of them in Judika Illes’ Encyclopedia of 5000 Spells and Scott Cunningham had something similar to the bamboo one in Magical Household. Either way, these ones are really well know which is why I didn’t source them.
I think my brother named the goblin “Blaze” or “Flame”. I don’t remember. Nice little goblin too. Liked to trip folks.
Mirrors are big gateways. Rubbing blood (a droplet from a scab will do) over a mirror may summon any demons. You can tell if they are near if your pupils turn black. Be careful though, if your house or mirrors aren’t protected they can show up in any reflective surface. Lavender and sandalwood together has been known to attract spirits (I can attest to this. I’ve never run across a spirit that hasn’t liked lavender or sandalwood except ghosts.) Willow trees are attractive to spirits and demons. Mastic and Dittany of Crete are fairly renown for their abilities to summon spirits although these plants might summon ghosts.
My brother and I have fun stories of mirrors. And by fun I mean terrifying.
These are just some of the plants that draw spirits. There’s a fuck-ton out there.
Stay away from iron (some find it distasteful), betony wood (cures water elf-sickness and makes a lot of spirits and demons cringe).
Iron’s a hit or miss. Sometimes it pisses demons and spirits off and sometimes it doesn’t.
Betony wood is pretty much a guarantee in my book to piss off demons and spirits.
I’ve noticed most demons and spirits won’t really reveal themselves to know in the way that’s concrete. They won’t stand up and say “I’m a demon!” They will side-step the question every time. There is some hierarchy. Watch for that. If it introduces itself as a lord or king or something similar get away. These are powerful spirits and demons and can brings greats amount of influence into your life - to the point of destroying everything you hold dear. Sometimes these “ranked” demons are just throwing out the title to sound impressive. It’s better safe then sorry.
This is kind of weirdly stated. By this I mean that a lot of spirits won’t tell you shit. Oh, they talk but they don’t say anything meaningful.
Demons (by my definition) have this kinda hierarchy. By hierarchy I mean some demons will introduce themselves as “lord” or “king” but really they just own some territory and will fuck you up if you get in their way. Like a mamma bear or a honey badger. I don’t also think they say “lord” or “king”. I think our brains come up wit those words on their own.
It’s hard to describe. I’ll keep working on making it make sense.
Many demons and spirits have a certain criteria they are looking for when summoned. Each demon and spirit will be different. Bargaining with them is interesting. Be very careful and think of every loophole you can before making any deals (even something like giving your name). Demons have a tendency to find a loophole and slip out of a deal just to be contrary.
Pretend you owe a whole army of lawyers money. And they really want it back. It’s something like that.
And they really do love fucking with you. It’s a game. Check out the movie Lo on Netflix if you want to see how working with spirits and demons is like.
Typically influence will start with just feeling that something’s around and you’re being watched, studied. Then they’ll test the boundaries - what they can get away with before you banish them. Expect things being misplaced, being knocked over, or broken.
Don’t confuse this with the fae. They feel different. It’s a subtle difference but there.
Carry some sea salt around. If you’re feeling pursued like prey, throw some in the direction of your pursuer, tell them to go away, or cast a circle of salt around you. Magic circles work the same way.
Fucking my advice on everything, ever.
Some links for y’all from my blog:
Speaks on gods, demons, and the definition of a demon vs spirit.
Me smacking an anon does on “good” vs “bad” or “black” vs “white” magic. Also talks on morality of spirits and demons. Plus, necromancy!
Spirit or spirit caused wounds. I will make another post about this in the future.
Demons being a “temptation” and “giving into it”. Also known as a rant.
Rambling on spirits.
A Meet in the Woods and wandering spirits. Talking about spirits having get-togethers and happening across them. Perhaps related to the Wild Hunt or Gazu Hyakki Yagyō (The Illustrated Night Parade of a Hundred Demons).
There’s more. Check about amongst all the rubbish I post.
Hope this helps. Let me know if anything interesting happens or if nothing happens.
This stands. If anyone has something interesting happens and wants to talk, let me know.
